Cloud Crunch
Cloud Crunch

Episode · 1 year ago

S1E13: Examining the Cloud Center of Excellence

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

What is a Cloud Center of Excellence (CCOE), and how can you ensure its success? Joe Kinsella, CTO of CloudHealth, talks with us today about the importance of a CCOE, the steps to cloud maturity, and how to move through the cloud maturity journey.

Involve solve evolved, welcome to cloudcrunch, the podcast for any large enterprise planning on moving to, or isin the midst of, moving to the cloud posted by the cloud computing expertsfrom Second Watch: EAN, Willlghby, chees, architect, cloud solutions andskipberry executive director of cloud enablement, and now here are your hostsof cloud crunch. Walkome back to another episode ofcloud crunch. I am joined today by Rob Wheelan, as my cohost today, as skipBarry is taking so much needed time off today we have a very exciting guesstoday, Joe Cancella BP and CTO At cloudhealth, which is a vmwore company,Jos, an ocrpreneur and technologist who's, passionate about Pasta and CapeGod. I suspect, baseball and all things cloud, not necessarily in that order.Either he found a cloud heuth in two thousand and twelve with the goal ofdisrupting the growing complexity of cloud computing. The company was boughtby Vmare in October, two thousand and eighteen after becoming a global leaderand public and private clog management for enterprises, partners and smbs Joewas previously VP and engineering at Amazon backed cloud archiving companySonian, where he was a pioneer of using multi public clouds at scale and alsobuilding one of the earliest cloud centers of exellence, which is whatwe're going to be discussing today. He was also a managing director at Delwhere he led global engineering teams delivering multiples software as osolutions, products or SASS products and vpof engineering at silverbacktechnologies, which was acquired by Dell, where he helped pioneer remoteiteam management. Software. Joe also has the unusual distinction, havingbeen a member of the first scrown teet as a founding member of the EASELSICHANICITY team, before the advent of the Agile Manifesto, Jo welcome to theshow, thank you and glad to be here. Awesome Awesome, yeah, so today's topicis going to be closs centers of...

...excellence and all things relatedaround that of cloud and again. Thank you so much for joining us today.Excellent Jon't tell us what is a clous center of excellence. That's a greatquestion. I think the industry has a lot more definition. I think over thelast several years around a CLOUB center excellence. It's usually calledthe cloud Cenoret ONS, but I've seen many different terms for it. So I'veheard many companies also use a cod business office. In some cases,organizations just call it their platform teams, but basically it's agroup of cross functional leaders who get together and together they start todrive the best practices and standards that gover the cloud of plementationacross their organizations, and this is really driven from a change that a lotof people don't fully appreciate. That has happened in the cloud which isprecloud all of our usage of infrastructure and all of ourdeployments of applications were all controlled by central it. So your itorganization made avalable the infrastructure and or the applicationsand then had control over managing them and in the postcloud world managementin a large enterpriseis occurring in some cases, in a thousand or moreplaces across the organization, as opposed to being located solely incentral it, and I think that change is really a sizebut shift and it's it'sBrougt, both agility and innovation across organizations, but as alsobrought risk and so constent. Our excellence is a way to manage that risk.Awesome, that's great. How could copaies ensure that they hade theelements in place for it to be successful yeah? I think it reallystarts for him first and formost, with the recognition that you actuallyunneed to build a cloud sent of excellence, so you mentioned in myAntro yous mentioned that ID built one of the early cloud centers ofexcellence, and that was in the two thousand and Tan eleven time fram andwhat had happened in my experiences. I had really scaled up my company's useof the public cloud. In fact, we were one of the Amazon's largest customersback in the two thousand and tand...

...eleven time frame and then afterscaling it up. I ended up bringing multicloud across multiple other PABAclouds, and what I found is that the cloud just moves at a pace that is verydifferent from the pace that occurs inside traditional data, centersinfacted. It occurs to the PASCE that in many cases is for to five orders ofmagnitude faster. So if you step back you think of one order of magnitude,you know, if I add another zero on your bank- account that that seems like apretty size with change to you. But you had four to five Zeros. On top of that,that bank account and that's a big difference, and so what we saw is thethe cloud moves so quickly that you need a way to govern so so I used I inthe early days of building this out, I used to call it distributed management,centralized governments, and so the goal is to bring a group acrossfunctional people together for finance and operations and architecture andsecurity, and to allow them to not dictate not control but to put in playstandards and best practices and make all the places where management of thecloud is occurring. More effective, it's great. So No, you did this. Inwhat year going back, I joined Sonian as vpof engineering in two thousand andten. We Win Multicloud in two thousand in eleven and over the course of seriesof several years ended up on the four different clouds. So in cloud years that was aboutseventy. Seven years ago I di the math correctly. That's exactly right! So,looking at that, obviously you know the Clod has changed right. It has, and ithasn't, there's been a lot of new capabilities. Do you think that modelwot you did, then, would you change anything different from then to nowwithoun a doubt. I think, at the time. I think you really have to adapt yourcloud centor excellence to the needs of your business, and you also have toadapt it to the state of your maturity. It's so, I think, there's a longconversation we could have if we had more time around just maturity, but inour organization we were a tach company, so we had different needs. As a techcompany, we were going to market through a channel so that kind of drovea different business model that really...

...impacted how we thought about artistingthe power of the cloud, and we had a very clear strategy of how we wereusing the pubic cloud and how we're using multi cloud, I think in someorganizations they have a greater scale. They sometimes have less strategy. Theyhave different business need. So I really think you need to build yourcloud center of excellence around first that recognition I talked about, butyou need to get the organizational commitment that over time, your needswill change around what you need from a cloud center exoncs and what you expectfrom your cloud. Cento maxonth. So I think you have to adapt it to thespecific organiation, but I think it starts with you know the recognitionyou need to do this to scale, and I say this to all companies that I meet whereI'm meeting a leader, who's scaling in the Publiccod, and I will tell them youwill hit a wall if you do not put in place best practice es stampers. If youdo not invest in the Cloud Cen, O rectons, there will be a tipping pointat which that easy agility in the easy innovation that you receive byleveraging the public cloud will suddenly turn against you. And so thisbecomes a mechanism that it's not discretionary. It's actually aprerequisite to scaling in the cloud. So you mentioned Jo that you need aClod San Axceence, because you're managing a large humber of people andalso the pace of the cloud is just fast things. Keep changing is thereanything. That's a constantthey've, seen in governmence anything that it would be a constant from twothousantand ten to now in terms of what people should be looking at yeah, it'sint interesting. You say that so there's really three areas that Ifocused on in Twsanta, ten and eleven, and those three still today representthe foundation of a cloud sanarax one. So the the first is financialmanagement, which is, as you go, to a public cloud, and you start to try tounlock the innovation and agility of a public cloud. It comes with the risk ofbudget overruns, and you know, in fact you see many cfos who bought into thestrategy of the public cloud only to find that they're paying for datacenters and now they're, increasingly...

...paying for a really large and growingPuba clob bills as well. So you really need to be deliberate in terms of howyou do financial management in your cloud, San or excellence, and that'ssomething that you can't do across hundred or a thousand different placesacross the organization. It needs to be centrally governed seconds operationswhich is really to to really harness the power and scale in the cloud. Ithink you need to put some standards and best practices in place. Often thesstart around configuration and it's around Duron tagging policies is aroundreference. Architectures O for these workloads. We spint up these types ofvirtual machines with this type of attached torge and these types ofperformance characteristics, but standardization becomes a prettyrequisite to repeatability and really drives your ability to gain the bestIroi fom the cloud and then the last, I would just say a security in compliance.It's an area where, when you run at cloud speed, you know you really needto know that you have confidence and integrity that all those places wherethe cloud is being managed day today and changes are being driven day today,don't end up putting you on the front page of the Wall Street Turrin. Yes,that's it's often not where you want to be not for the wrong reasons. What Ithinks, though, I do want to make sure our listeners really understand, too,is that you talked about being a tech company and how involved you brought infinance, and I think this has been a successful model. We've seen it overand over again as well, and I just don't think we can read. I enough, Ithink a lot of people look at and say it's a painful thing to do, but I knowan you have this experience to you can get them there, where they're allontributing. Equally, all those stake holders. That's right, I mean there'sbeen a revolution in finance. I think over the last five years in terms offinances, engagement in management of cloud and infrastructure, and initiallywe didn't really understand how finance could effectively engage, but I thinknow there's an emerging model guided by the cloudsine of excellence that Ithink is becoming highly effective in you know we're seeing organizations gofrom leveraging the cloud and their...

...justification is agility, ind invation,but it's coming at a cost to increasingly organizations actuallygetting better economics and being able to do things in the public cloud. Theycan't do inside their datasentage yeah. No, that's great! So couple recurringthings I see in your background is atual and I see cloud and in today'senvironment you know with the CCO or class centerback lives. How is that still so important yeah? I think if you look at mybackground, Jou see at one point in time. I work for Dall through anacquisition of a company, and I remember at Dell we used to have thisannual cycle. We would go through of planning our infrastructure for thenext year, so we'd have our business plan. We'd. Have you know what we wantto do achieve from a roadmap perspective and we go about actuallydeploying in the data center s, what we needed, and it would take some cases,weeks and months to actually procure the equipment and then rack and stackit and then put the operating systems and the applications. And- and therewas this rigidity to the process, but that's how things were done a decade.Classigo right. I think what happened with the cloud is. The cloud was notsomething that got adopted by central it it a it got adopted by a team in thedepartment and a liging of business and then from there started to spreatalmost virally across an organization, and I think one of the things that weneed to appreciate is that that freedom to go drive those decisions thatfreedom to make the day today, management decisions the freedom toactually provision what you want when you want. It is part of the agilitythat we get from the cloudand. So so the key of a cloud send of excellenceis not tooer rotate, which is that freedom is what is giving you. Theinnovation, it's one of the powers that comes with the cloud you have to strikethis balance of providing the agility and innovation and all the benefits ofthe cloud, but doing it away. That is, is not adversely impacting your teamsin their ability to get things done for the organization. So this shift from EI like to go n the cloud for innovation...

...and agility to finally, maybe gettingsome economics benefits out of it. What aresome some common trands are saying that. How do you do that? What company is andwhat teams are actually getting thorse economic benefits from the cloud yeah?I think the places where we find that you don't get the economic benefitsfrom the cloud tend to be traditional application. So if you look wwe've kindof lived for the last couple decades with an architectural model in whichthe operating system is kind of central to the way that we actually build indeploy and manage applications, and when you look beyond the operatingsystem, whether that's containers or just the rich array of platformservices that you see available today, you start to see opportunities toactually leverage the cloud n ways that you couldn't actually leverage intideyour data senter, and so so. As an example at at my previous company, wereally leveraged the spot marketplace, so we had some workloadhes that wereheavily analytic driven and they needed burst capacity. And so we used we wouldautomate acquiring the optimum price for compute and then discarding it d.So we basically built ite poten work loads where everything was disposableand everything could follow peaks and valleys in terms of demand. And so whenyou start to do that, and you start your align supply and demand in a waywhere it's reactive in responsive. I think you start to really unlock thepower of the cloud, because you are not making the capital expenditure for theinfrastructure that you you have available to you, you're just consumingit only when you need it, and so I think today, when you think about thishen years ago, when I was doing this, it didn't apply to every workclot andmost workloads. Most open source are built around the operating system. IsThe you know, central component of which your of your applicationarchitecture, but today increasing there's a lot of work loads where youcan take advantage of that and the more you start to actually build cloudnative or cloud centric architectures.

I think tha th, the more potentiall youhave to actually unlock the financial potential yeah. I think wative, seen infun consoltting for the past two years is people who come straight to thecloud with sort of legacy workload are going to be disappointed, usually inthe in the economics. If you just run EWAY, you ran in the data center. It'sjust going to be costly and you're not going to have T. There's awesome. Clobbenefits, Bhatt's interesting is, if you really seek for that agility, so,for example, of containers or or servilist, that's where you actuallyget the economic benefits. Of course it's sometimes cost like to get there.If there's a lot of refacturing that sort of like yeah, that's exactly right,it's my experiences as well, and I think sometimes people. They believethat they're going to the cloud to actually save money and that's actuallya journey. It's you know it's hard to achieve that destination at takes a lotof investment and it takes a lot of rearchitecturel or implementing newarchitectures to be able to actually achieve that. So I think your spot on.I think that's been my experiences Ofer the last decade as well, so can y tellus more about clodaturning, so maybe there's four sets of cotum charity.Tell us about that. So we cat heulth Wev, put forward this coude maturitymodel and it's interesting because it's based on tenousand plus costomers thatwe've worked with in the cloud it's based on Pattons that we've seen acrossthese customers and what's worked for them and in the maturity mode, like atraditional maturity model. The bottom left is all about being immature in thecloud in the upperright being highly mature in the cloud, but what we'veseen is is there's effectively three areas of investment. You need to maketo scale and mature in the cloud, and those are what I mentioned before,which is it's financial managemeent operations and security, but there'sthere's four phases that you go through in each of those areas of investmentand it starts at the most basic level it starts with visibility. invisibilityis, is often about what am I running? Why am I running it? You know, how muchis it costing me? How does it align...

...from a business perspective? It's youknow. Visibility gives you the connective tissue that allows you tomake smart decisions, but it doesn't actually make those decisions obviousto you. The next phase after visibilities all around optimization,and so this is whether you know in the financial managementside it's around.How can you make a workload besized appropriately so that it's notovercapacity but yet can support the demand that it has in the case ofsecurity. Optimization can be. How is it that I proactively monitor acrossall the changes that are occurring today, which could be hundreds ofthousands millions of changes across an enterprise and make sure that thechanges all fit into our best practices in our standards and our policies? Andthen, after you get to optimization, we find that companies really strugglewith scanling up this model in the cloud and so the next phase. We callgoverence in automation- and this is around moving away from just pushingout more dashboards or notification alerts, O or reports to yourstateholders, and it's about how do I proactively monitor for the ideal state?I want my workloads and my applications and my business services in and thenhow is it that I automate the outcomes that I want, and so this is aboutremoving the people, removing the human air from it and trying to actually keepin the optimum state all the time or nearly all the time, and then theultimate state that we really help stere our costomers towards is what wecall business integration, and this is where the cloud gets integrated intoyour enterprise, dashboards, integrated into your service catalogue, and it'sreally connecting out across the organization. It's no Londer thedestination of the cloud that you're focused on it's just part of how youtransact your business, so shifting gears a little bit, there'sbeen obviously Clotseran, mexcellence, just key to all those as well, butthere are other models that people have started to talk about. They may or maynot cover all the same things. One of them is the clod enable at enginedwe're seeing some more no mcclature...

...around that whereare. Some of yourthoughts on that Bun, I think, there's a member ofdifferent botels. Some of them are focused more around how you drive anorganizational transformation. Some of them are more around governmence andscale. I think I wouldn't stand here to tell you that there's only one modelthat applies to all of your problems. I think where the cloud center excellencefits best is as you're scaling your usage of the cloud across multipleteams especty. If there's any organizational comploxity, I thinkthat's where you really invest in the the CLOB sand of AXLENC. It's a way toactually successfully scale without putting your business at risk withouthaving costover runs without impacting t SLA. That's the place that I thinkthe CCOE fits, but there's other models. Like you know you look. I think someorganizations are trying to drive an organizational transformation aroundthe cloud. That's not what a C coes all Ahaut right. You know so there's othermodels that apply for different problems: Fantastic, okay, iven, athato going o the Matur O. I think W S was really interesting, especially thebusiness intigration. That's kind of like Cloudin Ervona that a lot ofpeople en vision, but I don't think it skip overady of those spaces Gitin yourview of the lasket. What Er is excellent? Sur Organizations Focus onsort of measure e Plon jury. I think what I would do is, I think, there'sdifferent metrics that we recommend and see make organizations successful ateach of those different areas of investment. So I think there's there'smetrics that we recommend around financial management around operationsas well as security, but there's also metrics. You can look for whether it'svisibility, optimization governance and automation or business integration, butI think they change as you mature. So as an example, a metric that you mightuse for financial management when you're, really at the visibility stage,might be as simple as how much am I spending in the cloud and how does italign by team or concent or a Department or Business? You knowwhatever the perspective is that you...

...actually want to look at that Databuy,but by the time you actually get the business integration it's more aroundintigration with your KPS. It might be. What's my cost pordocument for month,or you know, what's my cost peruser per month and how is that changing today orthis week, so I think there's a set of metrics you can use, but they alter. Asyou start to mature yeah, I can say that that kind of hight intigrationbeing absolutely amazing, hering stories of customrs Hav. Seen to thatreally well, I had you know, and so I actually, when the story of Soniandactually did this myself and it was kind of an interesting story which waswhen I came in. I was brought in as a turnaround leap of engineering, an thisreally fast growing startup. That was entirely based in the cloud and wereached a point where the cloud spend was going up raptanly in Likt I had amonth where I got up three hundred and fifty thousend dollar at West Bill, notlong after joining, which I can tell you in two thousand and ten early, twothousand and eleven was really substantial. You didn't have a lot ofcompanies doing that today, less interesting right and- and I did theanalysis and looked at it from a business perspective in the fundamentalmetric by which we were actually driving. The business was cosperdocument fermonth and what I was finding was. The cospor document permonth was running around two dollars and four cents Prodocumar vermonth andI thought well that's interesting date and I went back and I did the analysisand found that it was around. Eighty four cents was the break even pointfrom a business model perspective and so effectively we were running abusiness that was just going to lose money in the COT. There wasn't asubstantial change in direction and by the time I left I had a down to aroundthirty two thirty four cents podocument por month- and it was this- you knowsizemic transformation. It was an example of a business model that wasnot going to work in the cloud to a business model that actually had acompetitive advantage by being in the cloud, and so I think I've seen thatStori myself first hand and I've seen...

...examples of otheir customers who'vebeen able to drive that type of business transformation. Youknow. Thatkind of story is grief. Like I mean that's, a huge decrease in cost and tathere der my art. So I wante to ask a question to tie that back to you knowthe original definition of the Clos Cet ere of excellence. You know financialoperations and security. So, culturally, how do you? How do you get that story of Likehey?Here's the end goal of business integration? How D you get people whoare either on the cause, Teir Excellence O or will be on the classcenter of excellence, to embrace that that indstate? Do you find that they'rethey adopt that easily or does it take a little bit of work? Yeah, it dependson the organization. What we have found in general is at the most basic levelwhen you're at the visibility phase. It's just you provide the information,so you bring the information, often at a phase of visibility, you're bringingit down to key stake holders across the Department or a team, but not down tosay individual developers who might be on a team, but your goal should be youknow, initially to start to push the information out, but not necessarilywith the point of view you know not with this is good. This is bad. It'sjust to start to a raise in the case of financial management. I call it the thecloud costic, which is. You know the extent that you coald start to raise,that club, Costi H and that awareness of cost that's really the beginning ofit and then over time. I think the most successful organizations tha ive foundis you need to have a bit of Gamificationup where people are gettingregular report, carents and they're actually seeing their peers and they're,seeing how they're scoring relative to their peers to be able to really startto drive a change across an organization. But I think it reallyrequires a commitment top down to actually commit to riving a cloudcenter rexons and having best practices an standards without that it's oftenhard to get the ground up. Support you'll get some level what we seen asorganizations that don't have the...

...topdown commitment, they'll havepockets of excellence across the organization and then pockets whereit's not accurring, and I think in the case of costs that could take a publiccompany from you know, having a good quarter to having a bad quarter. If youdo that, it could take a company that might be in a high, highly regulatedindustry, from from having a security breach or not having a security briege.So having not uniform adoption, I think, is a great risk across the organization.So I do think it starts with executive level. Commitment to building andinvesting in the CCOE so looking forward, I don't believe, there'sreally an end state in this transformational time period. Thingskeep maturing, there's new features, there's new technologies. What do youthinks next yeah? I think we do live in the industry, that's sort of the giftthat keeps on giving which is a constantly changes, and I guess theonly thing we can rely on is it s it'll be different tomorrow than it is today.I think the things that I've been paying attention to is in terms oftrends that I think are real big drivers or the next few years iscertainly platform as a service. So when I started the company, Ninetyeight percent of what was occurring in the public cloud was actuallyeffectively virtualization. It was virtal machines and virtual ize storage,and that really was ninety eight percent. What we called the publiccloud and then the other two percent was mostly escrete, and you look today like that's completelyshifted and I'm not saying that the dominant paradigm is actually platformas a service. But I'm beginning to see this change in terms of not just adottion of platform as a service, but also starting to treat it as almost aset of colors by which you can actually paint a Palat by which you can pay andthat there's you know, I'm see increasingly seeing organizations lookat it, not by vender. You know it be last platform, services, ouknow versusGoogle versus asure platform services, but all of these comprising a set ofunderlying building blocks upon which...

...they can bring applications to market.So I've seen companies that that actually combine ag our grouble ad ABS,all into a single business service and all with deliberate reasons of why theychosen those potform services. So I think that's an exciting trend, whichis to go beyond the barriers of a public clod provider, but also start toleverage a rich blackform services where the operating system isn't thecore of our application architecture anymore, and I think from there I thinkwhat you'll see is is, as that emerges, I think two triends will probably occur.One is a trend I call microsass, which is, I think, increasingly we're goingto see. Third parties come out with very verticalized solutions that buildon top of these platform services that solve specific problems of you knowwhether it's marketing or customer relationship management for us that wecan use to build upon. But I also see a trend of, I think, will start to seemore third party ptform services that will be competitive like a bettersolution to dynamobb or you Kno, better, really vertically focus machinelearning services, and so I think these are all trends that I'm watching, and Ithink this change is accelerating to actually leverageing the cloud and theanalogy I used to give years ago, when I would do public speaking, was I usedto use the analogy of the Digital Camera, which is for anyone old enoughto have seen a digital camera which is before Digital Camera? You had filmbase camperas and I remember the very first digital camera. I used it had theexact formand function of a film based camera, but it was digital, like thebuttons were in the same place and everything- and this is a classic trendthat occurs with version of IT- tends to look like the predecessor technology.Just like the cloud look like virtualization when we firstsaw it, butthe two point o inovation is where the real disruption occurs. I think we'rejust getting started with a real desruption, great wow. That's that'sreally interesting, I mean. Can you expand on this? The Color Palletconcept is that what you see is part of this two point out yeah. I do. I thinka lot of people are struggling with. You know: Vender Lockin, no venderlock,and I see a world tomorrow where were...

...services are velved from many vendorsand it's not like the big three public cloud providers. You could have youknow small startups that provide one to three critical services to to themarket, and so I think you know, I see this world where we're just going toassemble those different services, and I, a couple years ago I was at acocktail hour in San Francisco. I was up on a you, know, roof top and it wasa medical in imaging application in it. Leverage, Google machine learning withsthree for storage of the images with a set of other third party services, allbrought together to actually deliver medical imaging, and it probably hadfive or six different vendors in the stack all using different platformservices, and I think what enables this that wasn't available to us today wasthe impediment really was always network cost because th you needed tohave your compute in your data close together, but I think, as we look formicroservice applications are really starting to break that barrier. For us,which is now, data is smaller and data can be in. You know, smaller units, ancloser proximity to lots of different areas of compute, and I think thatarchitectural model is enabling us to actually look at different options inthe cloud fantastic, so back to cloudhelth at is cloudhealth, enable organizations to move through their maturity journey yeah. Ilike to tell all perspective customers two things which is having done thisfor over a decade. Now that you need two things to be successful and scalingin the cloud. The first is, you need a superior product, that's purpose builtto drive and power, your cloud cend of excellence and I'm sure you'll. All.Forgive me if I'm Somehot, biased and saying that I think that solution is,is cloud health and is you know best and breed for that? But many peopleoverlook the second thing that you need, which is you need an organizationbehind that product that can support you, as you start from where you aretoday, in your maturity model and start...

...to slide up into the right in yourmaturity and knows what you need today knows based on working with hundreds orthousands of different customers, what you're going to need tomorrow and isthere to provide the people ad services to enable you to be successful? That iswhy you know from the Second Watch perspectiveite. I think it'sparticularly important, which is one of the reasons why cloud health you knowreally likes to partner with companies, like second watches, because if youlook at the complexity that's going on in the cloud, there is no way allcustomers can navigate that without finding a parter. Who really has youknow, focused and become an expert in the space? It's the only way, you'regoing to be successful scaling in the cloud, and so so we strongly believe inthat we know the Second Watch trungly believes in it. I think we come from aplace of realizing that you can't go t alone and be successful in pop tothat's Great Joe. I really want to thank you for your time. This week it'sbeen a pleasure to get to know you a little bit and hear a little bit moreabout your story. It's a very impressive rob thanks for cohostingthis week and audience were always looking for your feedback, please emailas that cloud crunch at second watchcom with ideas and suggestions. Thank you.Very much. You've been listening to cloud crunchwith Eann, Willolhby and skiffberry for more information check out the blogsecond watchcom company Blok, or reach out to Second Watch on twitter.

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